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TECHNICAL ISSUES => Renault 5 GT Turbo => Topic started by: andybond on 19:25, Sun 10 July 2011

Title: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 19:25, Sun 10 July 2011
I put in a new engine about 2 months ago.

It had a failed headgasket and was rebuilt ( admittedly not by me )

I ran the engine gently , and noticed a small amount of "goo" in the expansion tank.

i cleaned the expansion tank out - but the "goo" returned.

The car does not have any signs of HGF - no missing , idle issues , use of water or smoke. No overheating either.

Could it be crap left in the engine from when the HG went bang last time ?

If so - what's the best way to flush it all out ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 19:46, Sun 10 July 2011
Andy how thick is the goo??


Best way to clean coolant system is to remove bottom rad hose connection to rad and run a hose through one end of the coolant system and then back flush it, I would then put pipes back on and fill up coolant system with water only at this stage and use a dishawasher tablet / washing machine tablet crumble it up and run the car for a few mins, the tablet will work it's way around the system and remove majority of the crap in the system, then I re-flush the system again.

But again how thick is the goo?

Only say as I have seen an R5 still run with a really thick goo in expansion tank for a few hundred miles and temps stay fine turned out to be a cracked head. (wasn't my 5 was my neighbours red one)
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 20:06, Sun 10 July 2011
How thick ?

Erm , i can put my finger in it and it sticks to my finger. Could scoop it out with a ladle , but its not really really thick. It has the consistency of half melted icecream.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 20:11, Sun 10 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
How thick ?

Erm , i can put my finger in it and it sticks to my finger. Could scoop it out with a ladle , but its not really really thick. It has the consistency of half melted icecream.

Hmm could be just crap left over from the previous problem, I would first of flush the coolant system out as above if it appears again I would be thinking cracked head or split rad maybe?

I will then be trying another rad and if it's still doing it only 1 option left unfortunatly :(
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 20:28, Sun 10 July 2011
Did you hear that noise?

That was me shouting


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 20:43, Sun 10 July 2011
(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1525/img06941.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/img06941.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8387/img06951.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/img06951.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 21:08, Sun 10 July 2011
I hope that was a picture of your finger and not a blurred pic of your winky  :lol:

Still try and flush it through but I would be looking at dodgy rad or cracked head with that mess :(
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:34, Sun 10 July 2011
:D

Cheeky so and so ..


I think it must be rad - as it definatly didnt cause this mess when I was running it in.

Or is that wishful thinking ?

Ill change the rad and work from there ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 10:01, Mon 11 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
:D

Cheeky so and so ..


I think it must be rad - as it definatly didnt cause this mess when I was running it in.

Or is that wishful thinking ?

Ill change the rad and work from there ..

I would do the easier option myself to start with also but you need to make sure rad is a known good working one.  Flush the new rad through before you fit it all in place fairy liquied , washing tablet with a hose in one end and then swap ends and back flush until it runs out clear.

I would also try and clean the pipes before you fit the new rad, flsuh through with hose and tablet until clear
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 11:34, Mon 11 July 2011
Just another thought could even be turbo core leak but my money is on rad or head as I know your turbo is new
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 11:53, Mon 11 July 2011
I am voting for rad.

Incidentally , on the way to a local site today I decided to take the five.

One of the water pipes going from pump to turbo decided to leave the land of the living and split.

I am going to micro bore copper pipe them back in
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 12:23, Mon 11 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
I am voting for rad.

Incidentally , on the way to a local site today I decided to take the five.

One of the water pipes going from pump to turbo decided to leave the land of the living and split.

I am going to micro bore copper pipe them back in


I would bypass the turbo altogether Andy, so just go from waterpump to carb base this will remove the 2 x turbo coolant pipe's
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 18:26, Mon 11 July 2011
None on from carb base --> water pump.

Turns out it wasnt that hose - it was top rad hose.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 08:19, Tue 12 July 2011
I am thinking this is going to be cylinder head fault :(
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 09:06, Tue 12 July 2011
oh noes !

What makes you think that ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 09:47, Tue 12 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
oh noes !

What makes you think that ?


Just the amount of goo and no mayo mix in the oil,
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 13:23, Tue 12 July 2011
I hope your wrong.

Really I do

 :wink:

A big hammer will be meeting a lump of metal otherwise ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 13:27, Tue 12 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
I hope your wrong.

Really I do

 :wink:

A big hammer will be meeting a lump of metal otherwise ..


I hope I am wrong aswell.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 15:03, Tue 12 July 2011
I have had almost James5 and SteveL levels of luck with my car since I bought it .

Been through 2 engines ,2 turbos , 2 of just about everything  :(

My wife just rolls her eyes now.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 16:00, Tue 12 July 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
I have had almost James5 and SteveL levels of luck with my car since I bought it .

Been through 2 engines ,2 turbos , 2 of just about everything  :(

My wife just rolls her eyes now.

Andy I know how you feel matey, think it's engine conversion time, the prob is you will do what me and Steve have done in the past and sell up and then a few months down the line by another bloody one and start the process again (There addictive like a class A drug) rehab don't work.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 21:50, Sat 16 July 2011
Any news yet Andy?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 15:40, Sun 31 July 2011
James ,

Changed over the rad , and noticed a tiny residue. Could have been left overs.

Took the car out today , and it was running warm , and its bust another top hose. I guess it increase in pressure and it has killed the top hose.

I am suspecting that the head gasket is on its way out. Its missing now at the top end in 4th and
5th , could that be coincidence as I had timing issues  :?:
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: fordy on 17:30, Sun 31 July 2011
maybe the hg has gone slightly and its pressurising the coolant system? would explain why its eating hoses but slight running okish
best way to check would be to use an mot emissions machine sniffing the header tank
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:20, Sun 31 July 2011
Going to change the head as a preventative measure.

I love/hate this car.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 21:09, Wed 03 August 2011
Took the head off this evening ( easier job than you might think if any newbies are reading this )

No signs of any mayo anywhere. Signs of possibly running a bit lean however I must stress I was running at 12psi and not 25  :D

(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1113/img07371.jpg) (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/img07371.jpg/)

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3999/img07381.jpg) (http://img818.imageshack.us/i/img07381.jpg/)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1155/img07391.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/img07391.jpg/)

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3141/img07401r.jpg) (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/img07401r.jpg/)

Any one any ideas why I got ice cream in the expansion tank ?

no signs of cracking on head , no signs of HG failure.

Stick on another head and hope ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: pschiii on 23:19, Wed 03 August 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
Took the head off this evening ( easier job than you might think if any newbies are reading this )

No signs of any mayo anywhere. Signs of possibly running a bit lean however I must stress I was running at 12psi and not 25  :D

(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1113/img07371.jpg) (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/img07371.jpg/)

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3999/img07381.jpg) (http://img818.imageshack.us/i/img07381.jpg/)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1155/img07391.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/img07391.jpg/)

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3141/img07401r.jpg) (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/img07401r.jpg/)

Any one any ideas why I got ice cream in the expansion tank ?

no signs of cracking on head , no signs of HG failure.

Stick on another head and hope ?


what about a liner seal ? probably one would not be totally proof and there would be a mix between the coolant and oil . Did you notice anything between the liners ; kind of mayonnaise . No cracked liner or head gasket , was there  no pressure in the cooling system  ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 00:01, Thu 04 August 2011
No goo inbetween the liners .

Coolant system was pressurising . Quite highly so.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: fordy on 00:39, Thu 04 August 2011
slightly warped head? or head cracked though oil way into water way?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 07:00, Thu 04 August 2011
Cracked oil way is my 5 bet ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 08:14, Thu 04 August 2011
Well you have replaced the rad and it's still doing it, :shock:  was the rad defo a known good working one??  

I would be looking at replacing the head, crack prob only opens when engine is hot.

It's defo only oil in water and not water in oil?  if it's oil in water I would say head, if it's the other I would be looking @ cracked liner maybe.

Why do you say it's been running lean??
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: DeanGT5 on 08:27, Thu 04 August 2011
Is it just me or does the middle of the HG look damaged?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 10:05, Thu 04 August 2011
Gasket looks fine to me, no egg shaped fire rings, no det marks, no splits or kinks in gasket, ok the water way in the centre look a little dirty but doesn't look like failed.


I would still be looking @ head cracked and it's prob only doing it when engine is hot.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: DeanGT5 on 12:06, Thu 04 August 2011
(http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k571/deanmf2/gas1.jpg)

Ill have a look later but the bit ive ringed looks dented?? maybe my eyes lol
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 12:50, Thu 04 August 2011
Dean, hard to tell from the pic as not the best of quality pic's, did you say you are going to look @ h/g? if so let us know what you see?  I am still thinking head crack within when hot.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: DeanGT5 on 13:37, Thu 04 August 2011
Yeah im going up later to give Andy a hand putting it back together. It is hard to tell from the pics. Ill have a good look at the head too
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 14:24, Thu 04 August 2011
Quote from: "DeanGT5"
Yeah im going up later to give Andy a hand putting it back together. It is hard to tell from the pics. Ill have a good look at the head too


Yeah take a good look over the gasket, unfortunalty I doubt you will see anything wrong with the head as it will be within the oil ways but look on the exterior for any airline mark's etc...  you know what your doing Dean.

Keep us posted, I take it he has a spare head anyway? I would put the spare head on :mrgreen:
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: DeanGT5 on 15:01, Thu 04 August 2011
Will do. Going to fit spare head, uprated gasket, head bolts etc. Hopefully be ok after that.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 15:41, Thu 04 August 2011
Quote from: "DeanGT5"
Will do. Going to fit spare head, uprated gasket, head bolts etc. Hopefully be ok after that.


Fingers crossed for you boys, hope it goes well and Andy has some good luck for a change
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 08:19, Fri 05 August 2011
The head is back on . Big thanks to Dean for popping over and helping me out.

No signs of anything unusual confirmed.
 
Rad was a known good one

Another working head has been used

Just got to put in a couple of bits here and there and it will be done.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: denty225 on 09:26, Fri 05 August 2011
I hope that's sorted it then mate.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 10:09, Fri 05 August 2011
Well done Lad's keep us posted on how it does either good or bad :mrgreen:
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:41, Sun 14 August 2011
Tis all good now.

Apart from the boosting.

I posted on RTOC but I dont think I am in the clique over there ...

I cannot seem to get the timing right.

Correct way around
Boosts fine in 1st / 2nd , 3rd misses at 3500 + under full load

Spin the dizzy gear 180deg out
unstable idle.

rotate it back towards original position in small increments means stabler idle but cant find the sweet spot of boost + idle.

WTF ? Redo it all again ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 23:51, Sun 14 August 2011
First off Andy I would get the engine to TDC with the flywheel mark aligining up with 0 on the gearbox bell housing and I would remove spark plug number 1 and put a small flat head in there to make sure the engine is @ TDC, I would then remove the dizzy gear itself and reset it so big 1/2 D is facing the passenger side of the car.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 08:53, Mon 15 August 2011
Did that once ..

I guess Ill be doing it again !  :D
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 11:43, Mon 15 August 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
Did that once ..

I guess Ill be doing it again !  :D


Have you made your dizzy adjustable?? so you can rotate it whilst in situ? might be worth doing this as getting engine spot on for TDC whilst it is together is hard, you are prob only a tooth out. By having an adjsutable dizzy you can rotate it whilst the car is idleing (use a towel over the cap), raise the revs to say 6000 rpm's and turn the cap slightly until it runs nice and smooth.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 17:36, Mon 15 August 2011
yeah , tried that James . Can get it to idle perfectly , but once about 4k still misses.

Set it all up again today and used lots of swearing and super close looks at TDC marks etc.

Going to take it off on a run in about 1/2 hr.

Cover your ears young James , if it doesnt work you will hear some new swear words.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 18:27, Mon 15 August 2011
Nrg !

Didnt work.

Felt smooth , then hesitated and stuttered at 4500rpm.
Ill make it adjustable.
How do I know which way I need to turn the dizzy to dial it in ?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: 5teve L on 20:26, Mon 15 August 2011
Has it just developed this since the headgasket went ?
Also what did Brigsy say about the carb, was it all good ?
I assume you have the dizzy drive gear in & not a tooth out, it's a right PITA to set sometimes, I used to use a headbolt IIRC & you need to make sure you get it so it's horizontal (or was it vertical, been a while) as you look at it but I forget which has to be left & which right as it has one cut out larger than the other doesn't it ?
I assume also you have tried a working carb or had wideband on it just to eliminate the carb.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:19, Mon 15 August 2011
I had this issue before swapping out heads .

I think the carb is fine , Brigsy hasnt given it the once over yet.

No AFR either  :oops:

I swear its down to timing. I reckon Ill have to make it adjustable and move it mm by mm until its mint ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: fordy on 22:20, Mon 15 August 2011
is the aei vac unit ok?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:53, Mon 15 August 2011
AFAIK yes ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 22:59, Mon 15 August 2011
Any way of testing ?

I still reckon its the timing , as it did it when I did the engine swap , previous engine was mint ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: Ash-Lee on 23:05, Mon 15 August 2011
Mines doing this!

1st and 2nd gear is fine, 3rd gear it stutters, sometimes bangs, and plumes of black smoke out the back. Almost as if it isn't burning the fuel very well at all.

Cap + Arm, Plugs and leads are all new as well.  :(
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 23:08, Mon 15 August 2011
I am getting a spare AEI wednesday so Ill let you know if that fixes mine ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 23:13, Mon 15 August 2011
While we are at it Ash-Lee , what have you changed recently ? - if anything ?

Trying to work out a pattern ..
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: Ash-Lee on 23:15, Mon 15 August 2011
New cap + arm was the most recent.

Just before that was the fuel pump, but it was missing before that was changed aswell. I had decided the missing was down to the worn out cap, but the new one has made no difference at all.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 23:17, Mon 15 August 2011
Ok , I changed my cap + arm + leads .

No fixy there.

Going to borrow from the leg end that is Dean a spare AEI and a TDC sensor from a known good.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 23:18, Mon 15 August 2011
I have made some KERAZY gaffs in the past , but there is no way I have fudged up timing 27 times in a row.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: Ash-Lee on 23:22, Mon 15 August 2011
Cars driving me up the bloody wall this year.

3 weeks of welding for it's MOT.
Lasts a week then it kills a fuel pump.
And now it generally runs like a s**t.

Meh!
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 08:20, Tue 16 August 2011
Andy, trust me adjustable dizzy will sort it, See if Dean has my old one lying about still if so use that.  it does sound like it's just a tad out.


I take it you have no ice cream mix anymore? was it the head?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 09:13, Tue 16 August 2011
Ill sort the dizzy by turning the bolt hole the other way around.

Mayo is no more ! Well chuffed.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 09:57, Tue 16 August 2011
Quote from: "andybond"
Ill sort the dizzy by turning the bolt hole the other way around.

Mayo is no more ! Well chuffed.


Told you it was head :mrgreen:

Yeah turn the dizzy bolt hole the other way.

Keep us posted
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 21:24, Tue 16 August 2011
I havent had time to have a look at the car tonight , but just a random thought...

The TDC sensor that goes over the flywheel. How does it work ? Electromagnetism ? Could this be interfered with due to excessive crud* on it ?

* crud is a highly technical version. Some maynot understand it.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: Ash-Lee on 22:46, Tue 16 August 2011
I'm sure it is basically a magnetic pickup. I suppose to much gunk could interfere?

The flywheel will have a missing tooth, or maybe a longer tooth then all the others to indicate when to spark.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 21:13, Wed 17 August 2011
Not playing any more.

TOYS ARE OUT OF THE PRAM.

DAMMIT CAR JUST WORK !
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 21:16, Wed 17 August 2011
Made the dizzy adjustable , put it 180 out. Redid the ht leads.

Cannot get the car to idle sensibly. Sounds like it is idling on 3 cylinders.

2 minor electric shocks later from the ht leads ( even tho I had a thick towel over it ) and I still couldnt get it running right.

Move it back to the "fixed" position , and voila. Idles fine.

Couldnt take it out to boost ( where no doubt it will miss ) as kids in bed.

WTF?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 20:28, Thu 18 August 2011
Fixed.


Reference pipe from top of FPR to the Carb top was cracked on the inside.

Cut it back , put it back on , job jobbed.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 20:59, Thu 18 August 2011
Andy well done matey, bet your chuffed :mrgreen:
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: andybond on 06:30, Fri 19 August 2011
Thats one way of describing it !
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: denty225 on 22:19, Fri 19 August 2011
FPR? What's that look like then?
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: James5 on 10:05, Sat 20 August 2011
Quote from: "denty225"
FPR? What's that look like then?


Looks like this
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/C12%20GTT/Fuelpressureregulator.jpg)
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: Ash-Lee on 10:59, Sat 20 August 2011
^^

Follow the fuel pipe from the carb. You will find the FPR hiding down at the bottom of the drivers inner wing.
Title: Re: IceCream in expansion vessel.
Post by: denty225 on 19:37, Sat 20 August 2011
:idea:  Fuel pressure regulator. Yeah I've had a fiddle with that a couple of times!